Curse

arredondo · Oct 18, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I'm sorry but all of this "buff Shadow Refuge!" talk sounds like Random Arena rage from people who are mad that they can't do more damage than a warrior, have better movement abilities than a warrior, AND survive just as good as a warrior. The first two should hold true but certainly not the last...

These changes you suggest would make the spell the best non-elite self heal in the game. That's just not what the assassin is about. Go play a Dervish if you want to be a melee character with awesome self-preservation abilities.

I'm sorry but all this "Shadow Refuge is fine!" talk sounds like fat and lazy guildies who have no clue of self-survival since it is their Monk buddies who are the ones keeping them alive all round.

... or perhaps over-the-top generalizations are ridiculous? Just debate the concepts and drop the insults; no need to force an opinion down people's throats just because they may disagree with you.

Zuranthium · Oct 18, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

You doubled posted.

It's not a generalization or insult, I gave a specific reason why it would be overpowered. Whereas you haven't given a good reason why it should be the best self-heal in the game.

LiamR · Oct 18, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

They need to make some better shadow step skills. How about.

Shadow Run

5e 1c 15r

You teleport to target foe.

When I made an assassin, I wanted to teleport, not teleport once every 45 seconds.

arredondo · Oct 18, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Double post deleted, and yes you did insult the "Random Arena ragers" who should be playing Dervish instead of Assassin, to use your terms. It wasn't necessary to say that to get your point across.

"Best" is a relative term, and each class has separate defensive needs. My suggestion addresses an issue that many, many people agree on - that an Assassin's self-healing ability sucks. This opinion takes in account more than just the raw data of how much HP per second a skill gives. It also factors in the fact that an Assassin is on the dangerous front lines fighting with armor barely 12% tougher than a caster's armor.

A Mesmer's Ether Feast isn't amazing, but it is most often cast from the backline where ideally he isn't open to as much of a pounding as those on the front lines. He also has great skills like Hex Breaker and Distortion to help prevent damage to begin with. The option to Distort+Ether Feast from full spell range is very effective when compared to trying to survive with SR and, say, Shroud of Distress on the front line. If targeted, the Mesmer is in the better defensive situation to heal while not taking on a lot more damage in the process.

A Ranger has better armor because of the extra anti-elemental AL, and they are also on the backlines so the long "cast" time of Troll isn't as big of an issue as the frontline Assassin being forced to attack to optimize a heal. A hurt Ranger can put up an evade, kite and Troll, but a hurt Assassin must keep swinging while they are dying? It's not even close.

Warriors have a penalty for Heal Sig, but their high armor rating really makes up for the fact that they are on the front lines in many cases. No one argues much against their survivability, but an Assassin doesn't even need to be this resilient. Just better than they are now.

Shadow Refuge with +6 regen instead of +4 along with an improved .25 cast is better, but not overpowered. They would still have to keep swinging to get the bonus heal, so they remain in a dangerous situation.

Yes, I know you can get a staff or bow to activate the bonus heal from a distance as you kite, but that doesn't make up for what is a bad heal skill. And of course they excel at maneuverability on the battlefield, which I guess Arena.net wants to emphasize as the Assassin's primary defense, but that still doesn't mean that an Assassin can't have competent healing.

A .25 cast instead of 1s helps deal with the fact that they are supposed to battle in close as they heal (and make use of Nightstalker's armor). Adding two extra seconds of regen isn't a major buff by any means, but it is nice all the same. Together any Assassin player can battle just a bit longer than they can now, but they are still more vulnerable on the front lines than the tough Warriors or heal-happy Dervishes.

BTW, Feigned Neutrality is one of my favorite new defensive skills in Nightfall. 80AL and +7 regen (kiting only) for 14s or so is just awesome.... that's how a good defensive skill is supposed to work IMHO. Shadow Refuge with its attack requirement for the bonus should be a bit more worthy of being brought for self healing.

Zuranthium · Oct 18, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Double post deleted, and yes you did insult the "Random Arena ragers" who should be playing Dervish instead of Assassin, to use your terms. It wasn't necessary to say that to get your point across.

It's not an insult, it's just a reflection on people who don't have the experience. We were all there at one point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

"Best" is a relative term, and each class has separate defensive needs. My suggestion addresses an issue that many, many people agree on - that an Assassin's self-healing ability sucks. This opinion takes in account more than just the raw data of how much HP per second a skill gives. It also factors in the fact that an Assassin is on the dangerous front lines fighting with armor barely 12% tougher than a caster's armor.

But they shouldn't be in the front lines for very long. That's why they have all these great movement abilities...they can attack until taking too much damage and then escape. If the other defensive skills for Assassins were made useful you could combine one of them with Shadow Refuge if you so desired.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

A Mesmer's Ether Feast isn't amazing, but it is most often cast from the backline where ideally he isn't open to as much of a pounding as those on the front lines. He also has great skills like Hex Breaker and Distortion to help prevent damage to begin with. The option to Distort+Ether Feast from full spell range is very effective when compared to trying to survive with SR and, say, Shroud of Distress on the front line. If targeted, the Mesmer is in the better defensive situation to heal while not taking on a lot more damage in the process.

But, once again, the Mesmer can not teleport in and out of the battle. That's why he gets Distortion. Trying to compare someone's survivability on the front line vs. someone's survivability on the back line is a flawed argument to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

A Ranger has better armor because of the extra anti-elemental AL, and they are also on the backlines so the long "cast" time of Troll isn't as big of an issue as the frontline Assassin being forced to attack to optimize a heal. A hurt Ranger can put up an evade, kite and Troll, but a hurt Assassin must keep swinging while they are dying? It's not even close.

I think your problem is you need to realize that Assassin's are not front-line fighters in the same manner as Warriors. They CAN be if you are running Air of Enchant smiting or some other kind of defenses that have good synergy with Assassins but overall that's not the Assassin's role. Your last two lines are just crazy...why would an Assassin be swinging if he is dying? He would teleport away or use Dash/Dark Escape to kite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Shadow Refuge with +6 regen instead of +4 along with an improved .25 cast is better, but not overpowered. They would still have to keep swinging to get the bonus heal, so they remain in a dangerous situation.

It truly is overpowered, though. That's 112 points of healing with a potential bonus and it can't even really be interrupted....at 8 in Shadow Refuge!! Far better than anything else in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Yes, I know you can get a staff or bow to activate the bonus heal from a distance as you kite, but that doesn't make up for what is a bad heal skill. And of course they excel at maneuverability on the battlefield, which I guess Arena.net wants to emphasize as the Assassin's primary defense, but that still doesn't mean that an Assassin can't have competent healing.

It certainly does mean they can't have competent healing. That's the entire idea of BALANCE. You can't have a class that does amazing damage, has lots of options for movement and shutting down the opponent, and still manages to find themselves with the best self heal in the game on top of it all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

BTW, Feigned Neutrality is one of my favorite new defensive skills in Nightfall. 80AL and +7 regen (kiting only) for 14s or so is just awesome.... that's how a good defensive skill is supposed to work IMHO. Shadow Refuge with its attack requirement for the bonus should be a bit more worthy of being brought for self healing.

You conveniently forgot to mention that Feigned also has a 25 second recharge. If Shadow Refuge is to be given any more than a tiny buff the recharge needs to be increased as well.

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It's silly that we are sitting here arguing about Shadow Refuge. There are so many other skills that actually fit with what the Assassin is supposed to do that need to be improved upon.

lord_shar · Oct 18, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

It's not an insult, it's just a reflection on people who don't have the experience. We were all there at one point.

Is this aimed at anyone in particular? It does come accross as being presumptuous, even if that is not its intent. We've all had 5 months to evaluate the assassin class, and the majority agree that assassins still lack the flexibily all other classes seem to enjoy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

But they shouldn't be in the front lines for very long. That's why they have all these great movement abilities...they can attack until taking too much damage and then escape. If the other defensive skills for Assassins were made useful you could combine one of them with Shadow Refuge if you so desired.

Most assassin shadow-stepping skills have incredibly long cooldown times, thereby requiring multiple shadow step skills to be loaded to get regular use out of them. Combine this with the extended attack chain dependencies of offhands and dual attacks, and you quickly run out of skill slots. The assassin would be balanced if the skill slot limit were more than 8, but we all know that that will never happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

But, once again, the Mesmer can not teleport in and out of the battle. That's why he gets Distortion. Trying to compare someone's survivability on the front line vs. someone's survivability on the back line is a flawed argument to begin with.

I agree here, but mesmers don't have the survival issues that assassins have since they are ranged attackers. They don't usually have to contend with agro and focus fire. The assassin's close range combat design does require improved healing support, but this is not available in the current assassin skill set, while other classes don't have this penalty.

Monks, Rangers, Warriors, Necro's, Mesmers, Ritualists, and Elementalist can all solo UW for a reason. Assassins seem to be the exception. Does anyone else see an imbalance in class utility here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I think your problem is you need to realize that Assassin's are not front-line fighters in the same manner as Warriors. They CAN be if you are running Air of Enchant smiting or some other kind of defenses that have good synergy with Assassins but overall that's not the Assassin's role. Your last two lines are just crazy...why would an Assassin be swinging if he is dying? He would teleport away or use Dash/Dark Escape to kite.

GW has always been generous to the core classes about utility. All of them can serve multiple purposes depending on the selected skills. Assassins can do only one thing well, and that's deliver high damage in melee. The problem is that they don't have well designed utility and support skills. This is why I agreed that many of their skills like Dark Apostasy, Critical Eye, and probably even SR should not be strippable enchantments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

It truly is overpowered, though. That's 112 points of healing with a potential bonus and it can't even really be interrupted....at 8 in Shadow Refuge!! Far better than anything else in the game.

SR is routinely stripped out or interrupted by the mesmer mobs my assassin engages. It is far from the reliability of Healing Signet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

It certainly does mean they can't have competent healing. That's the entire idea of BALANCE. You can't have a class that does amazing damage, has lots of options for movement and shutting down the opponent, and still manages to find themselves with the best self heal in the game on top of it all.

Warriors, Rangers, Monks, Necro's, and just about all of the other classes enjoy the above in PvE. SR is not even close to being a reliable self-heal. It does need revamping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You conveniently forgot to mention that Feigned also has a 25 second recharge. If Shadow Refuge is to be given any more than a tiny buff the recharge needs to be increased as well.

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It's silly that we are sitting here arguing about Shadow Refuge. There are so many other skills that actually fit with what the Assassin is supposed to do that need to be improved upon.

I agree, but SR should not be overlooked and ignored.

The assassin class will enjoy a nice boost once Nightfall goes live, assuming no more nerfs in between now and the final release date.

Zuranthium · Oct 19, 2006, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

SR is routinely stripped out or interrupted by the mesmer mobs my assassin engages. It is far from the reliability of Healing Signet.

It's even easier to disrupt Healing Signet; the activation time is twice is long. Not to mention you are taking double damage while using it. Warriors quite often end up healing themselves for almost nothing (or losing health) because of extra damage they took while using the skill.

It's good to hear that you agree about the Critical Strikes enchantments though.

lord_shar · Oct 19, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

It's even easier to disrupt Healing Signet; the activation time is twice is long. Not to mention you are taking double damage while using it. Warriors quite often end up healing themselves for almost nothing (or losing health) because of extra damage they took while using the skill.

You'd be surprised

Most interrupts usually target only spells, not signets. There are a few notable exceptions like cry of frustration and distracting shot, but the mobs that actually carry these aren't too common. Even if the Healing Sig is interrupted, its fast recycle time lets it get spammed before the enemy's used interrupt is available again. Also add dolyak signet which adds +40 armor at L15 strength, and Heal Sig's penalty is completely negated. My warrior used to routinely Heal-Sig in Maelstroms while farming IDS's without getting interrupted. Also add the zero-energy factor, and it's easy to see why heal sig thoroughly outclasses Shadow Refuge for raw power-healing.

Assassins can't use Heal-Sig because their armor drops into the 30's range when employing it. Warriors, on the other hand, have the armor levels to support healing signet without falling below 60AL threat range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

It's good to hear that you agree about the Critical Strikes enchantments though.

I would also welcome SR being turned into a skill as opposed to a strippable enchantment.

EDIT: Warriors have the superior +AL tanking skills to support Healing Signet. However, the assassin doesn't have the superior movement skills or ranged attacks to support Shadow Refuge, especially given that SR requires combat for the conditional heal when the assassin should be retreating to heal. Is SR self-defeating or what???

BahamutKaiser · Oct 19, 2006, 03:47 AM // 03:47

As I always say, ignorance isn't valid, and not knowing isn't justification, and feeling insulted for being corrected because your ignorant is just adds immaturity to the equasion.

Zuran, I would just ignore the writer after the 3rd invalid remark, some people claim flaws or disapprove just because they don't know any better, and some are just to lazy to look into it enough to make a concrete response on the situation. They just get more and more offended the more you correct them, they woln't learn.

With Shadows refuge, you have a shorter casting time than Healing Signet or Troll Urgent. You have nearly the same healing as Healing Signet, but unlike these, Shadow Refuge only lasts half it's recast, disabling constant reuse. With a Running Trigger instead of a Attacking Trigger, it is much easier to fulfill the Trigger. Without a Trigger, the healing should be nerfed. If you do not have an enemy to attack, or you need to do more than heal yourself to survive (retreating), than the trigger is easier to meet, and if you chasing a target, you can just keep running for the last second to get the healing instead of landing an attack. If your attacking, a well timed side step will still yeild the healing, and you only lose about one hit.

Best solution, leave SR the way it is, and make a new healing skill which offers 1-8 health regeneration for 6 seconds, and heals for 10-55 health if you are running when it finishes. 1 second cast, 8 second recast. The thing about altering skills is some people are going to like it the way it is. So making an alternative will avoid any disapprovals wile providing a better option.

On other notes, if they make a teleporting skill which doesn't have any other effects, it should be a 10 second recast. My suggestion is an elite which allows you to teleport to any enemy or ally. 5 energy, 1/4 cast, 10 recast.

Deaths Charge and Dark Prison, as I always say, 20 second recast. I used to say 15, but 20 is good enough, it matches AoD. And add "lose all adrenaline" to all shadowsteps.

Also another good Shadowstep idea would be, something like,
10 energy, 1/2 cast, 20 recast
Teleport to target enemy and gain an enchantment which reduces all damage to no more than 10% of your maximum health for 1-9 seconds.

That would be a great advance + defense skill which allows you to move in and put down combos with some protection, and than escape. Perhaps if the enchantment lasted longer, it could be an elite, basicly combining advancing teleport with Protective Spirit.

Zuranthium · Oct 19, 2006, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

You'd be surprised

Most interrupts usually target only spells, not signets. There are a few notable exceptions like cry of frustration and distracting shot, but the mobs that actually carry these aren't too common.

Why are you even talking about mobs? This game needs to be balanced on PvP, not PvE. You also forgot about Savage Shot, which every single bow Ranger uses.

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Bahamut...I could see a 20 second recharge as well for Deaths Charge/Dark Prison. AoD would then drop back down to 15 seconds, as would the forthcoming Shadow Prison. Shadowsteps shouldn't remove all Adrenaline but I do think they should disable Adrenaline skills for a couple seconds (the skills would simply get a little "X" on them in the same manner as if the person had switched to a different weapon, like a bow, that didn't allow the skill). That way Shadowsteps are still useful for Warriors but with less of a surprise factor than an Assassin can deliver.

lord_shar · Oct 19, 2006, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Why are you even talking about mobs? This game needs to be balanced on PvP, not PvE. You also forgot about Savage Shot, which every single bow Ranger uses.

Why shouldn't the game be balanced for both? It's not a good idea to ignore 50% of the player base in favor of the other 50%, when a reasonable compromise can be met.

The assassin is generally fine for most pvp game play. It's the PvE portion where assassin players experience the most class hate due to their generally high healing support requirements.

I do agree with BahamutKaiser that another SR alternative will probably be needed to satisfy all parties, preferably as a skill based heal (like how troll ungent was implemented).

Zuranthium · Oct 19, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Why shouldn't the game be balanced for both? It's not a good idea to ignore 50% of the player base in favor of the other 50%, when a reasonable compromise can be met.

Guildwars is a PvP game. GUILD. WARS. As in, players of different alliances fighting each other.

PvE can be entirely single player in this game. Even moreso quite soon with the whole Heroes thing. You can go do whatever you want in PvE, it doesn't matter.

Now I understand why all of your arguments are fundamentally flawed. Sorry, it's true. Any mention of PvE with regards to skill balance is completely irrelevant.

ShadowbaneX · Oct 19, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

what if shadow refuge disabled all attack skills for it's duration and instead of hard heal it grants an evasion bonus? I mean the flavour of the thing is that you wrap the shadows around you. Seems to me that for that time you'd attack less and be harder to see and as such, be hit.

Zuranthium · Oct 19, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Well the skill orginally did give you a 50% chance to block and then an unconditional healing boost at the end. It definitely shouldn't disable attack skills, though.

For an AoD ganker it's a fine skill already. You cast it on yourself, teleport in and get beat on a bit, receive the conditional heal because you're attacking, and then re-use it 4 seconds later. If you're taking too much damage you just teleport out at any time.

I'd be fine with the healing bonus being unconditional but it would have to be half of what it currently is (if not a bit less even). Can we please, please, please officially stop talking about Shadow Refuge though?

fallot · Oct 19, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

lord_shar, Shadow Refuge in the FPE was retardedly good. It needed to be nerfed. 50% damage taken + Unconditional heal = wtf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Well the skill orginally did give you a 50% chance to block and then an unconditional healing boost at the end. It definitely shouldn't disable attack skills, though.

I liked that incarnation, the original PvP preview one was a nice skill.

ShadowbaneX · Oct 19, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Well the skill orginally did give you a 50% chance to block and then an unconditional healing boost at the end. It definitely shouldn't disable attack skills, though.

For an AoD ganker it's a fine skill already. You cast it on yourself, teleport in and get beat on a bit, receive the conditional heal because you're attacking, and then re-use it 4 seconds later. If you're taking too much damage you just teleport out at any time.

I'd be fine with the healing bonus being unconditional but it would have to be half of what it currently is (if not a bit less even). Can we please, please, please officially stop talking about Shadow Refuge though?

Not really, no. What if instead of disabling skills, it ended early if you used a skill? The idea for the assassin is to get in, unload a skill chain and get out. This would be beautiful for a heal as you're gfto'ing. You could still do damage with just regular attacks with stances or whatever, have some evasion do you can avoid some damage and heal in the process. And as for AoD ganking, I don't mind a small nerf to PvP if it balances out the class overall.

As for the other skills, I would like a new Shadow Step that had a quicker recharge rate, even if it did nothing other than Shadow Step. I find the health bonus particularly useless on Death's Charge since quite often I'm at full health when I use it.

lord_shar · Oct 19, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Guildwars is a PvP game. GUILD. WARS. As in, players of different alliances fighting each other.

GW contains both PvP and PvE. You can feel free to acknowlege or ignore either component, but they will still exist regardless. "Guild Wars" is just a product title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

PvE can be entirely single player in this game. Even moreso quite soon with the whole Heroes thing. You can go do whatever you want in PvE, it doesn't matter.

Try soloing UW with an assassin and tell me how far you get

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Now I understand why all of your arguments are fundamentally flawed. Sorry, it's true. Any mention of PvE with regards to skill balance is completely irrelevant.

Such sweeping generalizations are what lead to pointless bickering. I agree with many of your points because the assassin still needs better skill implementation so as not to have self-defeating conditional strings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

lord_shar, Shadow Refuge in the FPE was retardedly good. It needed to be nerfed. 50% damage taken + Unconditional heal = wtf.

I remember SR being too good in its FPE form. I'm not advocating SR be returned to its original FPE form, but I would like to see it less vunerable to enchantment stripping, have an easier +health boost conditional clause to meet, or similar. SR in its present state doesn't really work too well, which is probably why Feigned Neutrality will see much more use once it goes live.

arredondo · Oct 19, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

It's not an insult, it's just a reflection on people who don't have the experience. We were all there at one point.

No doubt there are people who agree for the SR buff that have played Guild Wars since launch last spring and the Assassin class since Factions was released. Anyway, let's just move on from this area.

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But they shouldn't be in the front lines for very long. That's why they have all these great movement abilities...they can attack until taking too much damage and then escape. If the other defensive skills for Assassins were made useful you could combine one of them with Shadow Refuge if you so desired.

Yes, and I pointed out the movement abilities, but they at this point they don't make up for have zero healing you'd agree? Then the issue is how much healing should they receive while keeping relative balance for the class. I and others say Shadow Refuge is lacking as a competent heal right now, all things considered.

Quote:

But, once again, the Mesmer can not teleport in and out of the battle. That's why he gets Distortion. Trying to compare someone's survivability on the front line vs. someone's survivability on the back line is a flawed argument to begin with.

How is it flawed? The point was to compare each class' overall self-survivability on the field, and the Assassin is one of the softest ones out there. This is due to a number of things, and when you evaluate the healing ability of any class, you have to take in account battle position, armor level, defensive skills, etc. I started off my last post by saying you can't just look at the raw data and call it a day, and that's why I made the comparisons.

A Mesmer can get by with Ether Feast's having a 2s cast and 8s recharge while requiring to be in the enemy's spell range to execute it. This is because of where he fights from (backline) and his superior protection defense with skills like Distortion and Hex Breaker. Now relative to where an Assassin is on the field (frontline) and the quality of his defensive skills to prevent damage (including Shadow Steps), SR is lacking as a heal.

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I think your problem is you need to realize that Assassin's are not front-line fighters in the same manner as Warriors. They CAN be if you are running Air of Enchant smiting or some other kind of defenses that have good synergy with Assassins but overall that's not the Assassin's role. Your last two lines are just crazy...why would an Assassin be swinging if he is dying? He would teleport away or use Dash/Dark Escape to kite.

I specifically pointed out the fact that bumping up SR by 2s and making it a .25s cast would still not put the Assassin in the same class as Warrior for tank fighting. Just because skill X is buffed a bit does not automatically mean its overpowered and all balance is destroyed. In no way am I trying to redefine what the Assassin is supposed to do, but saying that a reasonable buff would be great for SR.

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It truly is overpowered, though. That's 112 points of healing with a potential bonus and it can't even really be interrupted....at 8 in Shadow Refuge!! Far better than anything else in the game.

It certainly does mean they can't have competent healing. That's the entire idea of BALANCE. You can't have a class that does amazing damage, has lots of options for movement and shutting down the opponent, and still manages to find themselves with the best self heal in the game on top of it all.

This may be why you erroneously think a buff is automatically overpowered. How do you reach 112 healing before the potential bonus? Currently L8 SR will give you only 64 HP in regen healing before the bonus. My suggestion bumps that to 96 HP in regen. An extra 32 HP every 8s is over-powered? Makes them tanks like Warriors? C'mon man, it's not nearly that big of a buff.

And the bonus is +52 HP if attacking, which is what you DON'T want to be doing when you are getting pummeled. In other words, unlike heals from backline characters I brought up before, that +52 HP bonus is often wiped away in two seconds because as you continue to attack, so are the enemies that damaged you to begin with. Of course it is at that point, when things get bad, that an Assassin is supposed to use other tactics to get out of harm's way... but a bit of extra healing is still not unreasonable over what SR offers now. The movement and defensive skills for the Assassin are nice, but that doesn't mean adding +32 extra HP every 8s for an attack-heal like Shadow Refuge is too strong.

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You conveniently forgot to mention that Feigned also has a 25 second recharge. If Shadow Refuge is to be given any more than a tiny buff the recharge needs to be increased as well.

I also didn't mention it was a stance or in Shadow Arts... I thought it was obvious what else the skill did. The recharge time of FN doesn't make it as weak as SR in the least. While SR requires you to continue fighting for the bonus, meaning subject your self to losing even more health, FN is almost exclusively for kiting where you take less damage as you heal.

The net status of health points after one use of each in battle will often be night and day. If I use SR once and keep fighting the ones who hurt me to get the bonus, I will stay hurt. If I kite with FN (since I can't melee attack), I take on less damage from kiting AND 80AL while repairing a lot more health loss over 14s of +7 regen.

So with my health repaired, I get back to the action. Yes, FN does take 25s to recharge, but in actuality it is only around 10s - 12s of a recharge if I spend enough Shadow Arts points since FN lasts so long before it ends. It's not unreasonable to think a decent Assassin can do a lot better waiting for FN to be ready in that short amount of time after they last used it, seeing as how well they have been healed and protected for the previous 10s - 14s. You can't say that for SR, which BTW is hardly a challenge to interrupt. FN is tougher to stop since it is a stance.

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It's silly that we are sitting here arguing about Shadow Refuge. There are so many other skills that actually fit with what the Assassin is supposed to do that need to be improved upon.

For the Assassin, there's no other skill I'd prefer to see a buff to than Shadow Refuge. I'm certainly not alone since it is by far the skill that has received the most requests for improvement from other Assassin players. That doesn't mean it's the most useless skill (Mirror Stance, blah), but it is one that players really want to be happier with when they add it to their builds. Simply buffing it does not make it overpowered.

lord_shar · Oct 19, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Well the skill orginally did give you a 50% chance to block and then an unconditional healing boost at the end. It definitely shouldn't disable attack skills, though.

For an AoD ganker it's a fine skill already. You cast it on yourself, teleport in and get beat on a bit, receive the conditional heal because you're attacking, and then re-use it 4 seconds later. If you're taking too much damage you just teleport out at any time.

I'd be fine with the healing bonus being unconditional but it would have to be half of what it currently is (if not a bit less even). Can we please, please, please officially stop talking about Shadow Refuge though?

Wow, the SR-issue took on a life of its own. Any guesses why?

Either way, I won't mention SR again in this thread unless asked otherwise.

Zuranthium · Oct 19, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

GW contains both PvP and PvE. You can feel free to acknowlege or ignore either component, but they will still exist regardless. "Guild Wars" is just a product title.

Let's put it this way - the game producers do not sponser tournaments and money rewards for people who can get the most skill points on their characters, complete PvE missions the fastest, solo certain areas of PvE the best, etc. It's clear where the focus of the game is and as such PvP is where the classes need to be balanced.

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Originally Posted by arredondo

This may be why you erroneously think a buff is automatically overpowered. How do you reach 112 healing before the potential bonus? Currently L8 SR will give you only 64 HP in regen healing before the bonus. My suggestion bumps that to 96 HP in regen. An extra 32 HP every 8s is over-powered? Makes them tanks like Warriors? C'mon man, it's not nearly that big of a buff.

You switch to a +20% enchant weapon like a smart player right before casting the spell to get an extra second of healing from it. No, it doesn't make them tank like Warriors, but it gives them absurd healing ability. All the Assassin would have to do is take an Elementalist secondary, grab Kinetic Armor, and he'd be tanking better than a Warrior with your proposed change to SR.

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Originally Posted by arredondo

Yes, and I pointed out the movement abilities, but they at this point they don't make up for have zero healing you'd agree? Then the issue is how much healing should they receive while keeping relative balance for the class. I and others say Shadow Refuge is lacking as a competent heal right now, all things considered.

Zero healing? SR currently heals for 80 points (at 8 Shadow Arts) every 9 seconds without taking the "while attacking" bonus into consideration. For the energy spent it's already the most efficient non-conditional self-heal in the game...better than anything you'd get by taking a Monk or Ritualist secondary. With your change it would be THE best self-heal in the game.

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Originally Posted by arredondo

A Mesmer can get by with Ether Feast's having a 2s cast and 8s recharge while requiring to be in the enemy's spell range to execute it. This is because of where he fights from (backline) and his superior protection defense with skills like Distortion and Hex Breaker. Now relative to where an Assassin is on the field (frontline) and the quality of his defensive skills to prevent damage (including Shadow Steps), SR is lacking as a heal.

But, once again, you're wrong about the Assassin "being on the front line". He has the ability to quickly attack the enemy's backline and then come back and harass opposing Warriors in your own team's backline.

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Originally Posted by arredondo

And the bonus is +52 HP if attacking, which is what you DON'T want to be doing when you are getting pummeled. In other words, unlike heals from backline characters I brought up before, that +52 HP bonus is often wiped away in two seconds because as you continue to attack, so are the enemies that damaged you to begin with.

Once again - weapon swapping. Cast Shadow Refuge, Dash away, Switch to a wand, attack once right before the SR effect ends, and then continue running. If you have AoD or another teleport that allows you to get away then you cast Refuge, teleport out and start running, then wand the person who is chasing you right before SR ends and continue running.

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Originally Posted by arredondo

The net status of health points after one use of each in battle will often be night and day. If I use SR once and keep fighting the ones who hurt me to get the bonus, I will stay hurt.

LOL, I'm sorry about your poor tactics?

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Originally Posted by arredondo

I specifically pointed out the fact that bumping up SR by 2s and making it a .25s cast would still not put the Assassin in the same class as Warrior for tank fighting. Just because skill X is buffed a bit does not automatically mean its overpowered and all balance is destroyed. In no way am I trying to redefine what the Assassin is supposed to do, but saying that a reasonable buff would be great for SR.

That's not a reasonable buff, though. For reasons already stated.

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Originally Posted by arredondo

So with my health repaired, I get back to the action. Yes, FN does take 25s to recharge, but in actuality it is only around 10s - 12s of a recharge if I spend enough Shadow Arts points since FN lasts so long before it ends.

Wow, good job doing nothing but standing there half the time in your glorious state of Neutrality. SUCH a help to your team.

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Originally Posted by arredondo

For the Assassin, there's no other skill I'd prefer to see a buff to than Shadow Refuge. I'm certainly not alone since it is by far the skill that has received the most requests for improvement from other Assassin players.

I'd love to hear about the GvG experience and HA ranks of these Assassins. In the very first page of this thread you have good players who are agreeing with me that Shadow Refuge is hardly broken.